Re-Thinking Our Superficial Beauty Obsession With Dr. Mary-Alice Mina

SPEAKER_1: You’re listening to She Grabs The Mic, and I’m your host, Cole Baker-Bagwell.

SPEAKER_1: Every week, we’ll explore what it means to be happy, present and whole.

SPEAKER_1: You’ll hear from courageous women who are kicking ass in their lives, and leave with actionable tips that you can apply to reset from toxicity, tune into your gold, and live powerfully from the bedroom to the boardroom.

SPEAKER_1: Right now, it’s time to grab your headphones, kick back and relax, and get ready to be inspired.

SPEAKER_1: Welcome, Amazing Ones!
SPEAKER_1: I love that you have chosen to be right here, right now. SPEAKER_1: I have an awesome show lined up for you today.
SPEAKER_1: This week, we’re diving into our superficial obsession with beauty.

SPEAKER_1: We’re going to talk about what our guest calls the ‘hot girl hamster wheel’, how social media and the beauty mega industry are influencing our mindset and driving our choices, and changing how we think about what we see in the mirror to feel confident and beautiful in our own skin at every age.

SPEAKER_1: Joining us to share her expertise and wisdom is our awesome guest, Dr. Mary-Alice Mina.

SPEAKER_1: She’s a Harvard-trained, double board-certified dermatologist, dermatologic surgeon, and leading expert on skin health and skincare.

SPEAKER_1: Dr. Mina is the host of The Skin Real, a podcast for people looking for real skincare guidance by true skin experts, where she emphasizes a holistic and preventative approach to skin health and aesthetics.

SPEAKER_1: With over 15 years of clinical experience, Dr. Mina is an invited speaker on podcasts and a host of national meetings.

SPEAKER_1: She’s recognized for her artistic eye and surgical skills, while helping people feel good in their skin.

SPEAKER_1: Dr. Mina is the co-owner of Baucom and Mina Derm Surgery in Atlanta, Georgia, where she treats patients with advanced surgical and cosmetic procedures to restore and maintain healthy skin.

SPEAKER_1: Welcome, Dr. Mina! Thank you so much for joining me today.

SPEAKER_1: I’ve been looking forward to this conversation with you.
SPEAKER_2: Hi Cole. Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_2: I am thrilled to be here.
SPEAKER_2: I love your podcast and can’t wait to be discussing all things skin with you today.

SPEAKER_1: Thank you.

SPEAKER_1: Ok. We’re going beneath the surface today because there’s so much that influences, of course, how we see ourselves and how we feel about ourselves.

SPEAKER_1: I am so thrilled that you’re here.

SPEAKER_1: All right, let’s do it. One of the things that has impressed me most about you is your refreshing and super empowering perspective about beauty, skin and aging.

SPEAKER_1: How do you define beauty and what makes you feel most beautiful?

SPEAKER_2: Oh, gosh, we’re jumping right into it, aren’t we?
SPEAKER_2: Yes, we are!
SPEAKER_2: I think beauty is how it’s like a state of mind, right? SPEAKER_2: We’ve all seen people who objectively on the outside, right?

SPEAKER_2: We think they look beautiful, they have everything, but they don’t feel beautiful.

SPEAKER_2: So, it really comes from inside out.

SPEAKER_2: I think it’s being content, being at peace with where you are, not striving for perfection all the time, which I know is really hard for high achieving women.

SPEAKER_2: To me, beauty is peace and calmness and acceptance and excitement.

SPEAKER_2: That’s beauty.
SPEAKER_2: And when you have that, you look beautiful too.
SPEAKER_2: It’s reflected on the outside.

SPEAKER_2: And I know you and your listeners have experienced this too, Cole. Right?

SPEAKER_2: You see someone who’s beautiful, maybe not in the traditional sense, but there’s something about them that is just so unique and just catches your eye and you just find that person so attractive, even though they maybe don’t check all the boxes of our narrow aesthetic narrative that we have for ourselves.

SPEAKER_2: So that to me is beauty.
SPEAKER_2: And you asked me, what makes me feel beautiful.

SPEAKER_2: Again, when I feel that sort of like calmness, that sense of peace and kind of gratitude for where I am, I’m not constantly looking ahead, wanting more and I’m also not constantly looking behind me at where I’ve been wishfully wanting to go back there.

SPEAKER_2: That to me is beauty and feeling good about where I am and being strong and healthy.

SPEAKER_2: And my definition of beauty has changed.

SPEAKER_2: If you had asked me that question back in my 20’s, I’d say beauty is being pretty and having guys like me and having pretty hair, and being skinny.

SPEAKER_2: That was my goal.
SPEAKER_2: So it’s definitely morphed and changed as I’ve gotten older.
SPEAKER_1: I love your definition of beauty.
SPEAKER_1: It’s beautiful.
SPEAKER_1: This acknowledgement that our sense of self is not just about what’s on the outside.

SPEAKER_1: It’s about how we feel on the inside that is reflected on the outside.

SPEAKER_1: I really loved and appreciated what you said about somebody who may not be “traditionally beautiful” but there’s just that little something that shines.

SPEAKER_1: There’s something about that person that you remember and gravitate toward.

SPEAKER_1: I, like you, believe that beauty comes from the inside.
SPEAKER_1: It’s a really beautiful thing.
SPEAKER_1: In my 20’s, I thought that pretty hair, pretty skin, and being pretty in my bikini were important too.

SPEAKER_1: Now, I know there’s something else to see here.

SPEAKER_1: Ok. You have a really strong emphasis, which I find very unique as a dermatologist and as a surgeon, where you differentiate between skin health and skin care.

SPEAKER_1: I’d love for you to break that down for the listeners. SPEAKER_1: What is that difference for you?

SPEAKER_2: Well, I feel like we talk a lot about skin care.

SPEAKER_2: And to me, skin care, or at least I would say, how it feels as a consumer that we’re marketed to, is that skin care is about the things we need to buy, the things we need to put on our skin, or the procedures we have to get done.

SPEAKER_2: And it seems very much like you have to buy these things and have complicated routines.

SPEAKER_2: And it’s just really  working on your skin from the outside in.

SPEAKER_2: I’m not saying what you put on your skin doesn’t matter and that doesn’t have a role, but I feel like it’s very narrow and limited.

SPEAKER_2: We’re forgetting that our skin is actually an organ, the largest organ we have, the most visible organ that we have.

SPEAKER_2: I think sometimes people just think of skin care as our face even, just like, what do I put on my face, right?

SPEAKER_2: It’s so narrow and limited and our skin is so much more.
SPEAKER_2: And that’s just one component, skin care.
SPEAKER_2: But really, I say skin care is whole body care. Take care of your whole body.

SPEAKER_2: I have people come to me all the time wanting, procedures and all these things to look their best and to erase the clock 10, 20 years, but they’re not healthy. They’re not exercising. They’re eating garbage. They’re smoking.

SPEAKER_2: I can do these things, but you’re not going to get the results you want because of all the other stuff going on.

SPEAKER_2: So we can’t just look at it so compartmentalized.

SPEAKER_2: We have to really think of our skin as part of our whole body and how we take care of it is from the inside out.

SPEAKER_2: And that’s really what I strongly believe in.
SPEAKER_2: The skin is a reflection of our inner health.

SPEAKER_2: I can look at your skin and have some insight into what’s going on, whether maybe you’re pre-diabetic or whether you have diabetes, maybe you have some issues with your blood vessels or your lungs based on your nails.

SPEAKER_2: Our skin gives us all these clues to what’s going on internally.

SPEAKER_2: So it’s so much more than just your face.

SPEAKER_2: And I think that’s where people just stop. They just think about skincare as making sure your face looks good and that’s it.

SPEAKER_1: Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_1: I am so blown away that you can look at skin.

SPEAKER_1: Yes. The skin is our largest organ and our protective layer. You can look at skin and you can know what’s going on with someone’s health?

SPEAKER_1: Wow. I think that’s super cool.

SPEAKER_1: I have to ask you because this question that’s burning in my mind right now.

SPEAKER_1: It’s begging to be asked!

SPEAKER_1: As you think about the procedures that people are asking you to perform, what percentage of those are neck up?

SPEAKER_2: Oh, gosh, a lot. A lot!

SPEAKER_2: Now, I do plenty aside from the head and neck, but I would say probably 85% are the face. And I’m guilty of it too.

SPEAKER_2: For decades, I would just put sunscreen on my face. SPEAKER_2: I forgot I had a neck.
SPEAKER_2: I forgot I had arms that were exposed.

SPEAKER_2: Now, when I look at the tops of my hands, I can really see the difference between the tops of my hands and my face based. I was much more vigilant about sun protection on my face and forgetting my hands. Or, I might put my sunscreen on, but then I’m driving and it gets washed off.

SPEAKER_2: So even at 44, I can see that difference.

SPEAKER_2: People are very focused on their face and I get it because, that’s super visible.

SPEAKER_2: People are looking in our eyes or looking directly at us, but we have to remember we have skin elsewhere too.

SPEAKER_1: Yes! Lots of it. Lots of skin elsewhere.

SPEAKER_2: Yes!

SPEAKER_1: You know, I can look at my hands and I can see the spots. I can see the sun spots, my youth spots, on my legs.

SPEAKER_1: I remember all those decisions I made about like lubing up with baby oil and iodine when I was young and on the beach for hours before I knew better.

SPEAKER_1: Your skin does tell a story, doesn’t it?

SPEAKER_2: Oh, absolutely!
SPEAKER_2: And that’s one of the things I love about the skin, right? SPEAKER_2: It tells a story.
SPEAKER_2: I see patients of all ages, all economic backgrounds. SPEAKER_2: I take care of a lot of skin cancer.
SPEAKER_2: I also take care of veterans.

SPEAKER_2: You can really tell if someone wore a short sleeve shirt while they worked outside or worked for decades and decades because of the way their sun damage and how their skin has aged.

SPEAKER_2: It’s really neat.

SPEAKER_2: The skin does tell a story.

SPEAKER_2: And that’s just one of the things I love about it.

SPEAKER_2: But I think people too often, they just get hung up on skin care.

SPEAKER_2: What products do I buy?

SPEAKER_2: What do I need to put on my skin?

SPEAKER_2: What do I need to stop aging?

SPEAKER_2: And we don’t take it further than that.

SPEAKER_1: Yep. Totally right.

SPEAKER_1: Ok. We’re going dive into something super heady now, because those were the easy questions.

SPEAKER_1: Last year, the beauty industry was valued at a whopping $625 billion globally and it’s expected to grow to $715 billion by 2025.

SPEAKER_1: And I came across this Harvard Business School article called Globalizing the Beauty Business Before 1980.

SPEAKER_1: In that article, Geoffrey Jones wrote, “The beauty industry has a number of distinctive characteristics which make it of unusual interest. However, including that it appeared relatively late, that most of its products were marketed initially to women, that it became characterized by large advertising budgets, that it spanned the health science and aesthetics beauty arenas, that demand was shaped by deep seeded cultural and societal norms, and that products affect in an intimate fashion, how individuals perceive themselves and others.”

SPEAKER_1: He wraps up by saying, “There is compelling research from a range of social sciences that there is a beauty premium.”

SPEAKER_1: Ok Dr. Mina. As we think about 2024 through your lens, what is the beauty premium that we are holding near and dear as valuable?

SPEAKER_2: Those are staggering statistics but I’m really not surprised when I see what I do myself. When I see what my friends do. When I hear what my patients do.

SPEAKER_2: You were asking, what is the beauty premium?

SPEAKER_2: ‘m speaking for myself and women, middle-aged women. We are so afraid of aging.

SPEAKER_2: That’s what I think people are really afraid of.

SPEAKER_2: And for women, we have been sort of put in this box that we have to look like we’re in our 20’s forever until we become past our prime. Then we’re allowed to be like a grandma.

SPEAKER_2: And then we’re no longer attractive and of value.

SPEAKER_2: What I’m excited about is that there’s this whole revolution of women who are menopausal, post-menopausal, who are saying, wait a minute, we’re not going to just spend the next half of our lives suffering with these chronic issues.

SPEAKER_2: There’s this huge push for more research on menopause and post-menopause, which there hasn’t been, right?

SPEAKER_2: Women have hardly been studied.
SPEAKER_2: Most of the research on women is about our reproductive capabilities.

SPEAKER_2: So it’s almost like we stop being able to have babies, and then we become really unimportant to society.

SPEAKER_2: Meanwhile, as all these major things are happening in our body, it’s like the second adolescence.

SPEAKER_2: We’re expected to still look this certain way, which is ridiculous and totally unrealistic.

SPEAKER_2: And it’s setting everyone up for disappointment and failure, and a lot of time and money wasted.

SPEAKER_2: So I do feel like the tide is turning a little bit, and it’s going to take women my age and up to say, “Wait a minute, this is ridiculous. This is nonsense.”

SPEAKER_2: I am allowed to age. I am allowed to be beautiful. I don’t have to follow these narrow standards that I did when I was in my 20’s.

SPEAKER_1: I so appreciate that. I’m noticing it too.

SPEAKER_1: I’m noticing both sides of that coin that you’ve just shared- this resistance to aging and I’ve got you by 10 years on the north side. 

SPEAKER_1: And I do know that myself and the women I know are among those people who are like, “Wait a second, we are so badass!”

SPEAKER_1: We’re more badass now than we’ve ever been in our lives.

SPEAKER_1: We are discovering things. We’re taking chances. We are thinking differently about ourselves and we are really redefining what they call middle age and God! I hope this is middle because then that means I’m going to live to be 110, which would be amazing!

SPEAKER_1: I would love that!
SPEAKER_2: And you might Cole! You very likely could. SPEAKER_1: God, wouldn’t that be awesome? I’d love that so much.

SPEAKER_1: I hear your point about women aging and having this feeling, this need to look, like they did when they were 20 or 30 or 40 or whatever it was. I remember the sage women in my family really embracing their physical appearance as they gained years.

SPEAKER_1: Why do you think we’re having such a hard time with that now? What’s changed?

SPEAKER_2: Oh gosh, well, probably a lot of stuff. I don’t want to blame everything on social media, but our world because of the internet is more connected than ever.

SPEAKER_2: When our grandmothers and our great grandmothers were getting older, they only had their church friends or the neighborhood ladies to compare themselves to.

SPEAKER_2: Now we’ve got the whole world to compare ourselves to and we see people posting all the time.

SPEAKER_2: We see images of celebrities and non-celebrities and influencers, and a lot of the times they’re highly edited. There are filters on everything. 

SPEAKER_2: We’ve forgotten what normal skin looks like. We’ve forgotten what normal bodies of regular people look like.

SPEAKER_2: I think that’s probably part of it. We’re just so connected. We no longer have just ourselves and our small little tight-knit community to compare ourselves.

SPEAKER_2: Now, we’ve got the whole world.

SPEAKER_1: Yes. We absolutely do.
SPEAKER_1: We won’t just blame it on social media.

SPEAKER_1: We’ll blame the whole damn internet.

SPEAKER_1: Let’s talk about this superficial obsession that we have with how our skin looks because you’ve alluded to it many, many, many times so far.

SPEAKER_1: You talk about something called “the hot girl hamster wheel” and the “toxic male gaze.”

SPEAKER_1: Break those down for us. How are each of those things really driving this superficial obsession that we have with beauty?

SPEAKER_1: I’d like to point out that it could be toxic male or female gaze.

SPEAKER_2: Let’s start with that one.

SPEAKER_2: It’s toxic because it’s like a dopamine hit for us.

SPEAKER_2: We’re so used to it.

SPEAKER_2: It’s not toxic because that person is toxic.

SPEAKER_2: I’m sure you’ve experienced this too. You walk somewhere and you notice people looking at you or staring at you, male or female.

SPEAKER_2: Then you get to a point where they don’t do it as much or people aren’t standing up offering to buy you a drink or let you sit, or hitting on you. Whatever it is, right?

SPEAKER_2: There’s a point where that sort of starts to dwindle.
SPEAKER_2: And if you need that sort of validation, that’s when it’s toxic.
SPEAKER_2: That’s when I think people struggle with, “I’m no longer beautiful.”

SPEAKER_2: And maybe that’s also coming from your spouse, right?
SPEAKER_2: If you’ve been married for 10 or 20 years passion can sometimes fizzle out. Sometimes it can feel more like roommates. SPEAKER_2: Then maybe you internalize that as “I’m no longer attractive to that person” because you no longer catch their gaze like you used to.

SPEAKER_2: I think people are on this quest to get that back- to get back that youthfulness that they had.

SPEAKER_2: That’s why I jokingly call it toxic. Sometimes we need that dopamine hit.

SPEAKER_2: I think it’s kind of to our detriment because we’re chasing something that we can’t really go back to.

SPEAKER_2: So that was that.
SPEAKER_2: Then there’s “The Hot Girl Hamster Wheel.” This is something I experience it too.

SPEAKER_2: I’m not saying I am immune to this at all, but I just find that with each year that goes by, I’ll go to my conferences or my social media feed and learn that now we’ve got to worry about our elbows or loose knee skin. Now we got to worry about our knees.

SPEAKER_2: Oh, now we got to worry about our labia, and we need a mommy makeover.

SPEAKER_2: And it’s like, when does this stop?
SPEAKER_2: I’ll have friends or patients tell me, “I get dry brushing, I spend $500 a month for dry brushing.”

SPEAKER_2: I’m like, why?

SPEAKER_2: Or, “I get a facial every week.”

SPEAKER_2: They do all these things. The list of the stuff that people do just to maintain becomes insane.

SPEAKER_2: And nothing ever gets removed from the list, right? SPEAKER_2: More things get piled on.

SPEAKER_2: So, when I talk about The Hot Girl Hamster Wheel, think about the things that you do for your personal beauty care.

SPEAKER_2: You might have eyelashes. You might get your hair colored. You might get eyebrow tattooing or micro-blading. You might get laser hair removal. You might do IPL. You might do chemical peels, Botox, filler, derma-planing. You get the point, right?

SPEAKER_2: And it just keeps adding up, adding up, adding up in time and money.

SPEAKER_2: I feel like a hamster on a hamster wheel where I’m just spinning my wheels in this effort to look like I’m not aging and I’m getting nowhere.

SPEAKER_2: That’s the Hot Girl Hamster Wheel. I think it’s important for people to be aware of it, because chances are you’re feeling exhausted. You’re wondering where your money is going because it’s expensive.

SPEAKER_2: I encourage people to do an audit of the stuff that you do, and actually write it down because you may be thinking, oh, I don’t do that much. But when you actually list it out, I think a lot of people will be surprised.

SPEAKER_2: Then, I would encourage you to give it a value. How much do you enjoy doing that?

SPEAKER_2: Do you really love your monthly facial, or your monthly, infrared sauna?

SPEAKER_2: If you are just doing it because you feel like you have to, and you don’t really enjoy it or don’t even think it’s working then it’s time to reassess. Why are we really doing these things?

SPEAKER_2: I’m not anti-cosmetics and aesthetics. I enjoy some of it for sure. But just be selective and allow yourself that you don’t have to do everything.

SPEAKER_2: The goal isn’t to never age.

SPEAKER_2: To me, the goal is to look your best, whatever age you are, but not to look 25 when you’re 45.

SPEAKER_2: We need to get beyond that.

SPEAKER_1: Wow. When you were making that list, I was exhausted.

SPEAKER_2: I know!

SPEAKER_1: And you know what? I’m feeling like a little inferior right now, because I was sitting there checking off the list in my mind and thinking, “Wow. Maybe I’m not doing enough.”

SPEAKER_2: Oh gosh. Don’t feel that.

SPEAKER_1: It’s a lot!

SPEAKER_1: I mean, once you start listing it out, it is a lot.

SPEAKER_1: And I got this mental image. I was a huge Sex and the City fan.

SPEAKER_1: There was one episode where Samantha wanted to get a boob lift or a boob job, because she didn’t feel that her breasts were beautiful enough or big enough.

SPEAKER_1: When she was there at her surgeon’s, she said to him, “What else is there?”

SPEAKER_1: He started marking her up- everything just described. Knees, tummy, elbows, wrist, neck.

SPEAKER_1: By the time he turned her around, she looked like a carnival clown.

SPEAKER_1: It was that moment and the look on her face. She was like, “Oh my God! I’m not beautiful at all.”

SPEAKER_1: As you were making that list, I was thinking about that and thinking about how many women, the deeper they get into looking at themselves through this lens, through elbows and knees and tummies and everything else, how they feel about themselves, and how that affects our self-esteem.

SPEAKER_2: Yeah, I remember that episode too.
SPEAKER_2: And the other thing is we just become tunnel vision. It’s the only thing we can see.
SPEAKER_2: I can only see my fat knees.
SPEAKER_2: I can only see my double chin or my jowls.
SPEAKER_2: You can only see that.
SPEAKER_2: And then you try to fix that.
SPEAKER_2: And then something else pops out.
SPEAKER_2: You try to fix that and then that.

SPEAKER_2: And then that is how people start looking weird, right?

SPEAKER_2: The goal of doing these procedures is to look like yourself- to look effortless. To not look like you’ve ‘been done.’

SPEAKER_2: But what happens is people just become so focused on their problems that they forget to look at themselves as a whole person. 

SPEAKER_2: And they forget what they looked like to begin with.

SPEAKER_2: And that’s when people start to look strange, unnatural and where you know they’ve taken it too far.

SPEAKER_2: You have to be careful with all of this.

SPEAKER_2: I think this is why beauty really needs to come from the inside out because things are going to change.

SPEAKER_2: If all your value is based on how you look, then you’re going to be disappointed.

SPEAKER_2: You’re going to have a really hard time.

SPEAKER_2: If you’re the hot girl from your 20’s, like, it’s going to hit you hard when things do change because they are going to change.

SPEAKER_2: So instead of trying to reverse the clock, have acceptance, embrace it, and then try to be as proactive as you can with your whole body health.

SPEAKER_2: Do little things here and there that can keep your skin looking youthful and beautiful.

SPEAKER_2: That’s my approach to aging.
SPEAKER_2: Unfortunately, that’s not what sells products and this industry is huge.

SPEAKER_2: There are always going to be people trying to get you to buy more, to do more. You just have to be a sharp consumer. You have to know your worth and know that it’s okay to say no.

SPEAKER_1: Yes! That’s such great wisdom.
SPEAKER_1: Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_1: You’ve talked a lot about women, 45 and up.

SPEAKER_1: How is this obsession affecting the choices that people under 30 are making when it comes to aesthetics and different procedures, even surgeries that they might get?

SPEAKER_2: Well, I have a tween, and he’s already talking about skin care and pimples and all that.

SPEAKER_2: He doesn’t even have a phone or social media or anything like that.

SPEAKER_2: It’s pervasive.
SPEAKER_2: Tweens and teens are obsessed with skin care. SPEAKER_2: But the problem is they’re obsessed with buying products.

SPEAKER_2: They’re obsessed with going to Sephora and Ulta and the pretty boxes and packaging.

SPEAKER_2: The sad thing is they don’t know the importance of sunscreen.

SPEAKER_2: Studies have shown that they don’t try to protect their skin from sunburns.

SPEAKER_2: So they’re using all this anti-aging stuff, but really the best thing they should be doing for their skin is wearing sunscreen.

SPEAKER_2: They don’t need these complicated routines.

SPEAKER_2: But unfortunately, they’ve grown up with social media and YouTube and influencers.

SPEAKER_2: They don’t know any differently.

SPEAKER_2: And unfortunately, they’re highly influenced.

SPEAKER_2: I don’t want to say gullible, but they are susceptible to these marketing ploys that are there.

SPEAKER_2: We see a lot of young people who are already really obsessed with skin care.

SPEAKER_2: I hope that my generation and beyond can help show people to take care your body first and foremost. Worry less about a complicated skin care routine or what procedures you need to have done.

SPEAKER_2: I was telling my children, “You’re never going to have better skin than what you have right now. Like, this is it.”

SPEAKER_2: You’ve got the most collagen.

SPEAKER_2: You’ve got amazing lips and bone structure.

SPEAKER_2: And this is it.

SPEAKER_2: So don’t like ruin it. Enjoy the moment.”

SPEAKER_2: That’s another thing.

SPEAKER_2: We can’t enjoy where we are at the time.

SPEAKER_2: So I’ll just like throw a question at you, Cole.

SPEAKER_2: Have you ever taken a picture, like gotten a headshot for work or family photo, and you get it back and you’re like, “oh, that is not good. I didn’t think I looked that bad.”

SPEAKER_2: And you don’t really like that picture.

SPEAKER_1: Of course I have!

SPEAKER_2: Right? Then 10 years later, you go back and you look at that picture and you’re like, “oh my gosh, I actually looked really good! Why did I not like that picture?”

SPEAKER_2: It’s frustrating.
SPEAKER_2: I wish we could appreciate it when we’re in the moment, but I’ve had that happen too.

SPEAKER_2: We’re like, why did I hate that picture? I actually look really nice.
SPEAKER_2: It’s too bad that we can’t see it in real time, how we really look.

SPEAKER_1: It really is and I can so relate to that.

SPEAKER_1: Every year I get new headshots done for work.

SPEAKER_1: I believe for myself that it’s important to show up as I am in that year and own it.

SPEAKER_1: So, I got my headshots done in December for this year and I made what felt like a courageous choice.

SPEAKER_1: I didn’t wear stage makeup or anything like that.

SPEAKER_1: I said to the photographer who’s this delightful woman, “Don’t touch these up. No filters. Please leave them as they are.”

SPEAKER_1: I’m going to own it.

SPEAKER_1: I was about to turn 55 and I was like, I’m here at this point in my life and I’m going to own it.

SPEAKER_1: I have to tell you that when I first looked at the proofs, I did exactly what you described.

SPEAKER_1: I looked for all of the things that were different. SPEAKER_1: Oh, my lips are thinner.
SPEAKER_1: My eyelids are a little droopy.
SPEAKER_1: I’ve got a deeper wrinkle between my eyebrows. SPEAKER_1: I can see all of that.

SPEAKER_1: Then I took a step back.

SPEAKER_1: I put the pictures away for a few days.

SPEAKER_1: When I went back and looked at them, I said, “Cole Baker-Bagwell, you’re going to look back at those pictures five years, 10 years from now, and you’re going to think you were smoking hot! So just see what is there in front of you.”

SPEAKER_1: When I flipped my mindset, I was able to see all of the things that I could be really grateful for, like you were describing at the beginning.

SPEAKER_1: I could see that I have a body that is healthy. SPEAKER_1: I still have lots of big hair, which I really love!

SPEAKER_1: And, I could see that I was able to show up in that moment and own the woman that I am now.

SPEAKER_1: For me, that felt really empowering and also very important. Sometimes, I look in the mirror and I’m like, “Oh, wow! When you were sleeping last night, that little wrinkle under your left eye creeped up. How did that happen?”

SPEAKER_1: I think it’s something that we’re all noticing because we are literally in our skin every day.

SPEAKER_1: The invitation that I hear you making is appreciate where you are right now because one day you’re going to look back and say “Wow, I looked pretty freaking fabulous at that point in my life.”

SPEAKER_2: Absolutely!

SPEAKER_2: And isn’t it kind of crazy that we’ll be like, “That’s so brave of you Cole to do that with your pictures?”

SPEAKER_2: And I’ve made the commitment that I’m not going to do filters on any of my posts, even though I’m like, “Oh man! That zoom light touch up would be great.”

SPEAKER_2: I use ring lights, right? I guess you could say, well, why are you using a ring light? You should just sit in the dark.

SPEAKER_2: But at least for me, I feel like a filter does blur the lines.

SPEAKER_2: I mean, a light is just light.

SPEAKER_2: But yeah, sometimes I’m like, “Oh man. I wish I hadn’t made that commitment and I could just put the filter on right now.”

SPEAKER_1: You know what? I so appreciate that you do that.

SPEAKER_1: And I think as more and more of us make these choices, we can lead by example. We can show people that they don’t have to be filtered.

SPEAKER_1: And I’m just going to interject this here.

SPEAKER_1: One of my favorite things about gaining years, aside from the privilege that I get to live life every day, which is amazing, is this. I was joking with my husband the other day and I said, “Oh wow. When I don’t wear my glasses, it’s like an Instagram filter for everything,” because I have to wear glasses.

SPEAKER_1: I can’t see far away. I can’t really see up close because my eyes have seen so much beauty!

SPEAKER_1: But it’s been this curious observation of the difference in what I see when I look in the mirror without my glasses and then when I look in that teeny tiny mirror that I need to pluck that eyebrow.

SPEAKER_1: It’s a mindset thing because I’m the same person rolling around all the time, it’s just what I’m seeing, right?

SPEAKER_2: Exactly!

SPEAKER_1: You were mentioning when people go too far in this fixation mindset that influences decisions that people are making about aesthetics and surgery.

SPEAKER_1: What do you consider a beauty catastrophe and how do you navigate the conversation when a patient comes to you and they want more and more and you know it’s too much?

SPEAKER_2: First of all, I would say a couple of things. I’m shocked at how many people don’t really do any research on who is giving them skin care, skin health advice and doing their procedures or surgeries.

SPEAKER_2: I’m always blown away! I will sometimes get the complications, right?

SPEAKER_2: I find people research the heck out of a light bulb on Amazon, but do you really research who’s giving you that information?

SPEAKER_2: What are their credentials?

SPEAKER_2: What are they trained in?

SPEAKER_2: Are they really trained in one of the four aesthetic fields like dermatology, plastic surgery, facial plastics, or oculoplastics?

SPEAKER_2: I’m just shocked how many people just look beyond that and they say, well, I saw it on Instagram or they have a lot of followers.

SPEAKER_2: So first and foremost, do your due diligence.

SPEAKER_2: Who is treating you?

SPEAKER_2: Because again, this is all elective stuff.

SPEAKER_2: This isn’t like you’ve got cancer and it has to be worked on, it has to be done.

SPEAKER_2: I think that’s first and foremost. The biggest mistake is people going to people who aren’t really true experts and you’re not going to get the best results.

SPEAKER_2: Then it is a challenge when people want more and more and more.

SPEAKER_2: But I find I have to say no. I just can’t with good conscience do something to someone that isn’t going to be helpful or if I don’t see it, right?

SPEAKER_2: If like body dysmorphia.

SPEAKER_2: First and foremost, I’m a physician. I took a Hippocratic oath to do no harm.A lot of other people who are non-doctors doing this didn’t take that oath, right?

SPEAKER_2: They might be driven by other things. But if I know the patient is not going to be happy, I know it’s not right for them, I know it’s not the best treatment, I’m not going to do it.

SPEAKER_2: I’ll usually tell them no, and I’ll say, I’m sure you can find someone who’ll do this, but I would encourage you not to get it done.

SPEAKER_2: So that’s always the issue.

SPEAKER_2: Someone’s going to tell them yes. Someone will take their money.

SPEAKER_2: But it’s just not the right thing.

SPEAKER_2: And I don’t feel comfortable doing that.

SPEAKER_2: I tell my listeners and my patients, find someone who’s not afraid to tell you no, because then you’re really getting the best care.

SPEAKER_2: Because if someone always tells you yes, they’re just, that’s not really giving you the best care.

SPEAKER_2: If someone tells you no, like that’s actually probably a good thing.

SPEAKER_1: That’s gotta be a tough conversation to have.

SPEAKER_2: Yeah, it can, but it’s important, it’s necessary.

SPEAKER_1: Yes. It absolutely is. I so appreciate how you’re showing up in that moment.

SPEAKER_1: Thank you on behalf of all of your patients and your potential patients.

SPEAKER_1: Alright. We’ve talked about the fact that we’re living longer than we ever have, and that means, yes, we are all aging.

SPEAKER_1: Statista said that the average lifespan for women these days is about 85.1 years.

SPEAKER_1: I know that the anti-aging industry is growing by leaps and bounds.

SPEAKER_1: There are so many products out there. You were talking about those with your tweens, and then others that are promising these big results, life-changing results.

SPEAKER_1: So, here’s the million-dollar question.

SPEAKER_1: Are there really any products that can stop skin from aging or reverse the signs of aging in skin?

SPEAKER_2: Well, I’d also just put a little asterisk there.

SPEAKER_2: Women may be living until 85, but we are not living in great health until 85.

SPEAKER_2: So actually, studies show that for the last 10 years of women’s lives, we’re actually in really poor health.

SPEAKER_2: Hopefully, we can improve upon that because I think a lot of people listening to my podcast, listening to your podcast, they’re not really just interested in living a long life.

SPEAKER_2: We want to live a healthy life.
SPEAKER_2: We want quality, not quantity.
SPEAKER_2: But is there anything that’s a magic pill?
SPEAKER_2: What I tell people, and it’s really simple, but it’s not always easy, is this. 90% of the visible aging that we see in our skin is from the sun.

SPEAKER_2: If you do nothing else, sun protect.

SPEAKER_2: I see this all the time in especially like cultures where sun protection is really valued, like Korea and some of the Asian cultures.

SPEAKER_2: I will see patients who are older and their skin is phenomenal. It’s beautiful!
SPEAKER_2: They have been vigilant about sun protection.
SPEAKER_2: Whereas in the US, I feel like we’re not as diligent about it.

SPEAKER_2: But I mean, you can see a difference.

SPEAKER_2: I’ll tell people, if you’re over 40, look at your stomach and then look at your arms.

SPEAKER_2: Unless you’re wearing a bikini all the time, look at the difference in that skin, look at the difference in the top of your arm, and then flip it over and look at the inside part of your arm, right?

SPEAKER_2: If it doesn’t look the same, that’s evidence of sun damage.

SPEAKER_2: So, sun protection is something we actually can really do to try and prevent excessive sun damage.

SPEAKER_2: Now, this doesn’t mean you hide out or never go outside. You still can live your life, but wear a hat. Wear some protective clothing. If you’re going to be on a boat under the sun, wear sunscreen every day.

SPEAKER_2: Those things really add up. They really make a difference.

SPEAKER_2: So if you do nothing else, do that. And it can be that simple.

SPEAKER_2: And then I’m also a big fan of Tretinoin, which is a vitamin A.

SPEAKER_2: If that’s your only nighttime cream (it is my only nighttime cream) then you’re going to be good for decades and decades.

SPEAKER_2: But the other issue that women face as we age is just our drop in estrogen.

SPEAKER_2: That is a huge component to aging for women.

SPEAKER_2: That’s why I think it’s so important that we do research and that this is a part of women’s health that is finely studied and not just ignored.

SPEAKER_2: We know that there are a lot of complications and chronic conditions that happen to women when their estrogen depleted.

SPEAKER_2: And it’s a natural thing.
SPEAKER_2: It does happen, but it doesn’t mean we can’t do things about it.

SPEAKER_2: Whether you take hormone replacement therapy or not or use topical estrogen or not, that can be helpful in mitigating some of the aging that we see in our skin, our hair, our nails, as we get older, too.

SPEAKER_2: I would say those are the main three things. SPEAKER_2: And it really can be that simple.
SPEAKER_2: But again, it doesn’t mean it’s easy.
SPEAKER_1: No, it doesn’t.

SPEAKER_1: I have to tell you that I’m a big beach girl. I have always been a big beach girl.

SPEAKER_1: I love the water and I love being outside my garden.

SPEAKER_1: When you were just talking about the arms, I just looked at the underside of my arms and then at the top. I thought, “Damn, there’s a lot of damage there.”

SPEAKER_2: Yeah. You’re your own control study.

SPEAKER_2: If you’re going to garden, wear a breathable long sleeve shirt.

SPEAKER_2: They make really great fabric nowadays that actually keeps you cooler because it’s almost like having shade for your skin.

SPEAKER_2: I know people think like, oh my gosh, wearing a long sleeve, in the summer sounds miserable. But this fabric is meant for sweating and getting wet and helping keep you cool.

SPEAKER_2: So really you’ll feel better too.

SPEAKER_2: We’ve got to shift how we think about being in the sun.

SPEAKER_2: And if you enjoy gardening, fishing, whatever you’re outside for significant periods of time, you just have to think about how you can sun protect and be smart about it.

SPEAKER_1: Does our skin reach a point in time where it doesn’t matter if you wear the sun protective shirt because the damage is done?

SPEAKER_2: I see a lot of patients, 60 plus, 70 plus, 80 plus, and I still tell them they might live another 20 years.SPEAKER_2: But it is cumulative.
SPEAKER_2: The sooner you can start, the better. S

PEAKER_2: But it’s like the saying about planning a tree, right? SPEAKER_2: The best time to plan a tree was 20 years ago. SPEAKER_2: The best time to sun protect was 20 years ago. SPEAKER_2: But the next best time is today.

SPEAKER_2: So I do believe it’s never too late to to start to have good healthy habits.

SPEAKER_2: I guess maybe if you’re 99, you’re probably not outside a lot, but you never know.

SPEAKER_2: I would just say start today, no matter what age you are.

SPEAKER_1: That’s awesome advice.
SPEAKER_1: Let’s get real about aging.

SPEAKER_1: Sometimes that word is really a zinger for people, especially for women.

SPEAKER_1: Maybe some men are feeling it too, and they’re just not talking about it as much.

SPEAKER_1: Or maybe I’m just more aware because I work with women.

SPEAKER_1: You can’t look at what you didn’t do 20 or 30 years ago or one minute ago.

SPEAKER_1: It’s right now- what’s in front of you right now.

SPEAKER_1: As you think about aging and getting real with where we are, what do you think that we can shift inside of ourselves to begin celebrating the women that we see on the other side of the mirror?

SPEAKER_2: It’s all about reframing.

SPEAKER_2: We just have to totally overhaul and reframe how we think about aging, what we think it means to be old, midlife and beyond.

SPEAKER_2: Like we just have to reframe it because right now, we think of it as like over the hill, you can’t have fun, you can’t do all these things.

SPEAKER_2: And I would bet most people listening are feeling like, and I hear this all the time and I feel it myself, right?

SPEAKER_2: You’re amazed that you’re the age you are because you don’t feel it, right?

SPEAKER_2: Like I feel easily 15 years younger than I am, right?
SPEAKER_2: And so I’m always like, how can I be 44?
SPEAKER_2: I feel like I’m 25.

SPEAKER_2: When did that happen?

SPEAKER_2: I feel like that’s how people, nowadays in our culture think. We’re living longer, we know that.

SPEAKER_2: And for a lot of people, we’re trying to live more healthily.

SPEAKER_2: Yes, we have a lot of chronic disease and a lot of chronic problems that we need to work out, but there is this sort of movement to not just age, but to age and have vitality and have what we call lifespan and health span to be healthy.

SPEAKER_2: We also need to take that to aesthetics too, and just reframe.

SPEAKER_2: It’s about perspective. It’s okay to not look like you’re 25 when you’re 45. I’s okay to have wrinkles. I’s okay to have some loose skin.

SPEAKER_2: Everything doesn’t have to be “perfect” because that’s really unattainable.

SPEAKER_2: Have perspective when you’re looking at pictures. When you’re looking at images just to know that’s a filter. It’s impossible to have pore-less skin. That’s not reasonable.

SPEAKER_2: It’s going to require a mindset shift and perspective and reframing about aging.

SPEAKER_2: And just like I said at the beginning, how my ideal of, and yours, of beauty change from when, in our twenties to now, we also have to, you know, kind of shift how we think about aging that, or, you know, perimenopause and menopause and postmenopausal, like that’s not over the hill and you’re not just like, you know, put out to pasture at that point, like reframe it, like you’re going to be healthier than ever.

SPEAKER_2: Challenge yourself, challenge your mind.

SPEAKER_2: Life is not over because you hit 50 or 65.

SPEAKER_2: That’s why I love that there are people like you and your podcast and a lot of other intelligent people out there putting out this notion of vitality and lifespan.

SPEAKER_2: And we also need to shift that into the aesthetic arena too.

SPEAKER_1: I love that.

SPEAKER_1: Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_1: I was listening to everything you were saying and nodding my head. Yes, yes, yes!

SPEAKER_1: It’s funny how you mentioned you feel 15 years younger than your years that you’ve been alive.

SPEAKER_1: I was just having this conversation with a girlfriend of mine not too long ago.

SPEAKER_1: I said, it’s only been recently that I’ve really kind of realized that I was born in 1969. I saw this hilarious cocktail napkin.

SPEAKER_1: It said something like, I didn’t realize how old I was until I had to, you know, fill out the form online.

SPEAKER_1: Then I spun that bitch like a total world.

SPEAKER_1: And I thought, wow, that’s me.

SPEAKER_1: But, in my mind and my soul and my being, feel so much younger. I definitely feel wiser than, than I did.

SPEAKER_1: And truth be told, I wouldn’t go back to my twenties. SPEAKER_1: I love where I am right now.

SPEAKER_1: I will be very honest when I say it is requiring mindset work for me at this point in time.

SPEAKER_1: It’s not just how I look.
SPEAKER_1: It is the number.
SPEAKER_1: And I’m like, dang, how did I get here?
SPEAKER_1: It just kind of happened really quickly.

SPEAKER_1: But then I remember that I could literally be at the midpoint and I just treat everything like that, Dr. Mina.

SPEAKER_1: Like I’m at the midpoint and I know so much more now than I did then.  And I’m dangerous and I love that.

SPEAKER_1: That’s an invitation that I would like to tack on to all of your wisdom. I want to invite women who are mid 40’s knocking on the door of 50 to this question.

SPEAKER_1: How can you see yourself as powerful and even maybe a little dangerous at this point in your life?

SPEAKER_1: Because that’s a big mindset shift.
SPEAKER_1: Alright. I want to wrap up with a couple of questions.
SPEAKER_1: You’ve shared a lot of a lot of wisdom about embracing who we are at this stage.

SPEAKER_1: What do you think is the best thing that we can do to break the cycle of hyper obsession that is driven by social media, that is driven by advertising, that is driven by the beauty industry, that’s making a bunch of promises about things that may or may not happen by using their products?

SPEAKER_1: What is the most important thing, the one most important thing that we can do?

SPEAKER_2: Eliminate.
SPEAKER_2: And this is what I personally do. It’s hard.
SPEAKER_2: It is really, really hard.

SPEAKER_2: I am on social media for my podcast and everything and for education, but I really try to limit the amount of time I’m on it because I know I will see things and then I compare and all that.

SPEAKER_2: So it’s easier for me to just try to eliminate stuff.

SPEAKER_2: If you have friends who constantly are talking about their appearance or talking about like just very superficial skin stuff and everything, just be confident to say, you know what, those aren’t my people.

SPEAKER_2: You know, it sounds harsh, right?
SPEAKER_2: Eliminate or limit the time you’re with them.

SPEAKER_2: If your community is not building you up and they’re focused on these very superficial things, eliminate. Separate. Remove yourself. Do the audit on your personal beauty care and see, where am I spending a lot of time and money on stuff that really doesn’t light me up and cost money and I don’t really enjoy doing it and I’m just doing it out of obligation.

SPEAKER_2: And just kind of ruthlessly eliminate stuff that if it’s not bringing you joy, it’s not filling you up, it’s not making you feel good about yourself, eliminate it.

SPEAKER_2: I don’t even go to Sephora and beauty stores because I know I’m going to be just inundated with stuff that I don’t really need. I know what’s working for my skin and I’m going to stick with it.

SPEAKER_2: People send me stuff or they want me to comment or try so I do stay in the loop.

SPEAKER_2: But I don’t go down the rabbit hole because I know it’s so tempting and it’s easy to see the shiny marketing and advertisements and think, oh, I need that.

SPEAKER_2: Like even I feel that way and I’m a dermatologist. 

SPEAKER_2: So to me, it’s just easier to eliminate that stuff in my life.

SPEAKER_2: I unfollow people who don’t make me feel good about myself or who are promoting stuff that I don’t think is healthy.

SPEAKER_2: And you just have to be okay with doing that.

SPEAKER_2: And I would say, be careful who you get your advice from too.

SPEAKER_2: Follow people who resonate with you and their message resonates with you.

SPEAKER_2: Someone telling you to constantly be buying stuff is maybe not the best, healthiest person to be getting advice from.

SPEAKER_1: Eliminate.

SPEAKER_2: Ruthlessly.

SPEAKER_1: Got it. Ruthlessly eliminate. Curate. Then gravitate toward the things that make you feel good.

SPEAKER_1: I love that!

SPEAKER_1: Okay. One last magical question. I’m sure people would send me hate mail if I didn’t ask, because I have a Harvard double board certified dermatologist on the line with me right now.

SPEAKER_1: You mentioned the vitamin A night cream.

SPEAKER_1: Aside from that one, what are your top, so two more, what are your top other two all time fave products for skin health and skin care that actually are worth investing in?

SPEAKER_2: Yeah, well, I guess I’ll tell you what I do, but again, this isn’t necessarily what everyone needs and that’s why seeing a dermatologist, seeing someone who can really help you with your skin is so

important, but really the most important things, it can be really simple. SPEAKER_2: You need a gentle cleanser.
SPEAKER_2: I’ve been using the Dove Beauty Bar for decades. SPEAKER_2: So it is super simple.

SPEAKER_2: And then you need a gentle moisturizer.

SPEAKER_2: I get mine at the drug store.
SPEAKER_2: I like La Roche, CeraVe, Neutrogena.

SPEAKER_2: I use these companies.

SPEAKER_2: They do a lot of research, good price point, and I like how they feel on my skin.

SPEAKER_2: And I do use a vitamin C serum.

SPEAKER_2: So that might be something people probably maybe mid-30s up want to try doing just to help even out their complexion.

SPEAKER_2: Do that in the morning and you have to use sunscreen.

SPEAKER_2: If you’re not going to use sunscreen, do not waste your money on anything else.

SPEAKER_2: It’s going to be a waste of money.

SPEAKER_2: Sunscreen, vitamin C, gentle cleanser, moisturizer, and then I love Tretinoin or a retinol product I think is great.

SPEAKER_2: And that’s really what I use.

SPEAKER_2: It can be that simple. It doesn’t have to be complicated.

SPEAKER_2: Now, if you have more specific skin issues, maybe you’ve got melasma or you have some sun damage that needs to be reversed, then there are going to be some other stuff that you’ll need.

SPEAKER_2: But if you just truly want to keep it really basic and simple, then I would say start with that.

SPEAKER_1: I love it. Thank you.That’s awesome.
SPEAKER_1: I had my pen out, by the way, while you were talking about those things because you have not spent as much time in the sun or you have been very diligent about using sunscreen,

SPEAKER_1: It has made a difference for you, lady.
SPEAKER_2: Well, I do feel pressure as a dermatologist to represent, but I wasn’t perfect and I went to tanning beds.

SPEAKER_2: I even had melasma because I was trying to tan when I was in my early 20s. So, no one’s perfect.
SPEAKER_2: Once I did get serious about it, I saw the benefit and I saw how much better my skin was and now it’s kept me from having to do a lot of procedures and a lot of devices and all this other stuff by just keeping my skin care really simple and making sun protection like super important.

SPEAKER_1: Caring for the health of your skin.

SPEAKER_1: I love that.

SPEAKER_1: You’ve shared so much wisdom, insight and empowering advice with us today.

SPEAKER_1: Thank you so much!

SPEAKER_1: I’m grateful that you showed up.

SPEAKER_1: What’s the best way for our listeners to learn about you, your work and your fabulous podcast?

SPEAKER_2: Well, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_2: This has been great.
SPEAKER_2: I mean, I could talk about this forever.

SPEAKER_2: My podcast is called The Skin Real, which in today’s world, I have to spell real, R-E-A-L, for real skin information.

SPEAKER_2: We cover everything from skincare to also whole body care and everything.

SPEAKER_2: Definitely check that out.
SPEAKER_2: My social media handles are @DrMinaSkin

SPEAKER_2: If you’ve been listening and you’re like, okay, give me some more info on how I can create healthy skin habits for myself, then I have a PDF that I can send to you.

SPEAKER_2: If you go to theskinreal.com/habits.

SPEAKER_1: Awesome.
SPEAKER_1: Thank you.
SPEAKER_1: There’s a free gift for everyone listening.

SPEAKER_1: Go check out Dr. Mina’s website.
SPEAKER_1: Tune in to her podcast.
SPEAKER_1: This woman has so much wisdom to share with us.
SPEAKER_1: Thank you so much and I appreciate you being here!
SPEAKER_1: Thank you for keeping it real.

SPEAKER_2: Well, thank you, Cole, and thanks for everything you do.
SPEAKER_2: I had lots of fun!

SPEAKER_1: All right, Amazing Ones.

SPEAKER_1: Before we scoot, I want you to remember this. SPEAKER_1: There’s only one you on this big, beautiful planet.

SPEAKER_1: And in case no one’s told you yet today, that’s what makes you beautiful and simply amazing.

SPEAKER_1: I hope you’ll join me here again next Wednesday. SPEAKER_1: Big love everyone and I will see you soon. SPEAKER_1: And that’s the end of the show today, everybody. SPEAKER_1: I hope it has served you well.

SPEAKER_1: Thank you so much for tuning in.

SPEAKER_1: If you’ve liked what you’ve heard, please drop a review wherever you grab your favorite podcast.

SPEAKER_1: Please subscribe so you never miss an episode.
SPEAKER_1: And please be sure to share this podcast with another woman that you love.

SPEAKER_1: If you’d like to learn more about me or my work, check out my website, colebakerbagwell.com.

SPEAKER_1: Until next time, remember to be super kind to yourself and do your very best to leave everyone and everything just a little bit better.

If you want to learn more about how to shift your mindset, listen here. Then, send me a note to schedule time to talk about everything that’s possible for you.